Guest
Eduard Habsburg is Hungary’s ambassador to the Holy See and the Sovereign Order of Malta. His family reigned in Austria, Hungary, Germany, Spain (and quite a few other places). Also known as Archduke Eduard of Austria, he is a diplomat and social media personality. Eduard and his wife have six children. Eduard is the author of several books and his most recent book, published by Sophia Institute Press, is Building a Wholesome Family in a Broken World: Habsburg Lessons from the Centuries.
Links
- Building a Wholesome Family in a Broken World: Habsburg Lessons from the Centuries (book)
- Archduke Eduard Habsburg’s X Account:
Transcript
Eric Sammons:
The Habsburg family is one of the most famous families in the entire world, and one of the most influential in history. But what can the example of this particular family teach average people about family life? That’s what we’re going to talk about today on Crisis Point. Well, I’m Eric Sammons, your host, editor-in-chief of Crisis Magazine.
Before we get started, I just want to encourage people to hit that like button and to subscribe the channel. Let other people know about what we’re doing here. Also, you can follow us on social media @crisismag, and you can get our email. Each day, we will send our articles to your inbox. Just go to crisismagazine.com, put in your email address, and that will come to you. And we promise not to spam you, at least not too much.
Okay, so our guest today, the return guest, Eduard Habsburg. He’s Hungary’s Ambassador to the Holy See in the Sovereign Order of Malta. His family reigned in Austria, Hungary, Germany, Spain, and quite a few other places. Also known as Archduke Eduard of Austria. He’s a diplomat and a social media personality. You have to follow him on X, if you don’t already. He and his wife have six children. He’s the author of several books. I think I own most of them. And his most recent book published by Sophia Institute Press is Building a Wholesome Family in a Broken World.
Eduard Habsburg:
You have a copy? You have a copy. Oh.
Eric Sammons:
I have a copy. You have a copy yet?
Eduard Habsburg:
I don’t have a copy.
Eric Sammons:
You see where I rank compared to you. That’s right. That’s right. I got the electronic copy a while back, but then so I could read it. But then just last week, the actual physical copy… And for those of who are listening in America, if you order, you will get a copy immediately. You might even get one before the ambassador. Before the author does, you might get your copy. So welcome to the program. I really appreciate you being here.
Eduard Habsburg:
Thank you for having me on the show. And let me return the compliment. You should definitely follow Eric on Twitter. He’s a lively, interesting, and outspoken presence on Twitter, and I enjoy his tweets very much.
Eric Sammons:
Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Okay, and that’s a diplomat talking who said that. So I mean, that means something. Okay, so before we get started talking about the idea of families, raising wholesome families, what you’ve learned from your own family history, your personal experience.
This week, of course, we celebrated the Feast of Blessed Karl of Austria, who was the last Habsburg emperor and also a cousin of yours. And I have a devotion to him. I’ll prove it right here because right here is my holy card that I keep right here I look at. And I always say a prayer to Blessed Karl before each podcast. And back here, you can’t see it, is my bust of Blessed Karl right there.
Eduard Habsburg:
Oh, wow.
Eric Sammons:
And so, in fact, just to kind of prove our Blessed Karl chops in this family. I have a proud dad moment here I’m going to share with everybody. My high school daughter last night was at catechism at our parish, and they had a Blessed Karl trivia contest, and she came in second place, which was very good because there’s a lot of people there.
In fact, at one point, the teacher even said, “You can’t embarrass your dad. You have to do well at this.” And she did. And she actually won a bust of Blessed Karl. It’s even better than mine. So that’s my Blessed Karl proud moment. But I wanted to ask you, because this week is his feast. He’s your cousin. He’s part of your family, your family legacy. What does Blessed Karl mean to you?
Eduard Habsburg:
Well, first of all, for me, what you just told us is so surprising because who would’ve thought that this gentle, friendly, family father, who in the eyes of the world is a total loser, who managed to lose the empire, the First World War, and die a few months later miserably in exile, that this is a character that would be beloved in the United States to the point that there is a Blessed Karl trivia contest in catechism. I mean, I’m blown away.
I’m used to people listening when I give a talk about Blessed Karl or my son gives a talk about Blessed Karl in the States of people listening. I’ve spoken in front of hundreds of people in the States. I’ve never spoken in front of hundreds of people in Europe on Blessed Karl. So there must be something in this man that deeply speaks to Americans, which is crazy in itself, because America is built on the idea of fighting tyranny, and getting away from monarchy, and being a democracy.
So what is it in Blessed Karl that speaks to Americans? And also speaks to me. And I would say the American aspect is, Americans want their political leaders to be upright, pioneer spirit. My yes is a yes, my no is a no people. And I think over the last years or decades, many Americans have lost that kind of faith in their political leaders. They don’t trust them as much anymore. But the American soul is this pioneer spirit. The American soul is, we shake hands on it and we can trust each other.
Blessed Karl, and in different kinds of shades, many of his ancestors in my family stand for this quality. Monarchs used to be the guarantor of law and of justice, and Blessed Karl was someone who took this very, very seriously. And I don’t just know it from history books, I know it personally because… I haven’t met him, of course, because he died in 1922, a few years before I was born.
But I met his widow, his wife, Empress Zita, when I was a young boy. And she told me personally, I remember sitting in the room where she told us about the coronation of Blessed Karl in Hungary. And she said he was so deeply impressed by the fact that him receiving the crown of St. Stephen was an event nearly like the consecration of a bishop or like the anointing of a priest before his consecration. It was deeply sacral.
When they offered him to renounce to his crown in exchange for getting things, he laughed with his wife because he said, “I can’t. It’s a promise I made to God. I promised him to look after my people.” It’s not about power or wanting to wear a crown. He had been anointed by the bishop. He had promised this to God. So I think we feel a lot of that quality that we would want our political leaders to be. And for me personally, in my family, he’s highly appreciated and loved.
He is probably the most popular Habsburg among the young ones especially. And when I asked them, “Why?” They would usually say, “Because he was a brilliant husband and father. He was a deeply devout Catholic. And he gave everything for his job, which happened to be emperor, but I can do that too.” So he’s a relatable saint. I mean, as every great saint, his virtue’s in abundance, and he lives them in a heroic way. But what he did, every one of us can do. And therefore, I think that explains a bit.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah, and I agree with everything you said about the American phenomenon of devotion to Blessed Karl. I also think there’s another thing. I know people outside of America might not believe my next statement, but I believe the American people are a peaceful people, and we are frustrated by the fact that our government has not been peaceful. I mean, has been a government that has started conflicts, or engaged in conflicts, and kind of inflamed conflicts around the world.
And when we read about Blessed Karl, and his devotion to peace, and the sacrifices he was willing to make for peace in an incredibly difficult situation, that’s something we want in our leaders instinctively. We understand. I mean, Blessed Karl was a soldier. This isn’t a man who was afraid of a fight or anything. He wasn’t cowardly. He was the opposite. But instead, he just understood. And because he was a soldier, I think, he understood the value of peace. And I think we want our leaders to really value peace as well and to work for peace like Blessed Karl did.
Eduard Habsburg:
I totally agree. And that was, I think, the core message that John Paul II put sort of above the beatification of Blessed Karl because he was an emperor of peace, who listened to the Pope’s calls for peace in a time where everybody just thought of war. He went so far as to make himself seen a traitor in order to bring peace about because he listened to the call of the Pope. And currently, we are in a war where Pope Francis desperately invites all parties to make peace.
Hungary, my country, is one of the very few countries that strongly speaks in the same direction. The Holy See appreciates what we’re doing. And so, we’re a bit in a tradition of Blessed Karl. In fact, two days ago, three days ago, on his feast day, we gave a conference in Santa Maria dell’Anima, where we spoke. And there was a strong Vatican participation through cardinals, several bishops, where we spoke about this very strong call for peace in this man and for our times too.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah, I was telling you before we got on that I was privileged. This past weekend, I was in Washington, DC for a Blessed Karl conference. There was a beautiful mass with new music that was dedicated to Blessed Karl that was sung for the first time at this mass. And the Hungarian Ambassador to America was there. He spoke afterwards. And he mentioned, of course, Blessed Karl’s devotion to peace.
And I really do appreciate that Hungary does seem to be following in the footsteps of Blessed Karl and advocating for peace. I mean, from everything I see is that they seem to be one of the few rational countries these days about just saying, “Okay, let’s focus on peace.” And I think that I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s because of Blessed Karl’s intercession for the country. Okay, so.
Eduard Habsburg:
Absolutely.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah. So also, there’s a last thing about Blessed Karl is you were saying. On the feast day, you were at a conference. I was actually privileged. I also was at the 31st shrine to Blessed Karl was dedicated in America on Monday, and I went to it. And it was just beautiful because… I didn’t know how many there was. Charles Coulombe actually told me. He’s like, “That’ll be the 31st.” And so, there’s now 31, which for a blessed is actually a very large number, because obviously saints still get a lot. But there are 31 shrines, separate shrines, for Blessed Karl in America.
Eduard Habsburg:
Are you part of the Prayer League, Eric?
Eric Sammons:
Yeah. In fact, look. There it is. There’s my pen. There’s my pen, so yeah.
Eduard Habsburg:
Well done, sir. Very good.
Eric Sammons:
Absolutely. Okay. So we’ll probably mention Blessed Karl again here, but this week I couldn’t, of course, talk to you without singing his praises once again, right? Exactly. Now, you have a book, of course, The Habsburg Way, which I interviewed you about, and that was excellent. But this one is focused on, it says, Building a Wholesome Family in a Broken World. And I think some people might not get the connection between Habsburgs and family who don’t really know the history, but there really is a connection there. And why is it that family is central to the Habsburg legacy both politically and personally?
Eduard Habsburg:
Oh, you can get me talking for half an hour.
Eric Sammons:
Go ahead.
Eduard Habsburg:
So in my first book, I had the seven principles of our family. And the first one was, Get married and have lots of children. I would say that first point from the first book is the topic of my second book. Get married and have lots of children, because I believe that having a good, happy lifelong marriage and lots of children is the greatest gift that the two spouses can give each other, that they can give to the children, and that this family can give to society. So that’s, I think, the core message of the book.
Why is the Habsburg Family the family that always stood for family values, having lots of children, having lots of marriages, instead of fame for conquest of other nations or something like that? It’s because when the Habsburgs jumped onto the world stage in 1273 when the first king of the Holy Roman Empire, Rudolf of Habsburg, the first of our family became a king, he immediately had to rule over a very complicated network of tiny states, tiny dukedoms, princedoms. And he had to keep them all in peace and in good and peaceful relations with each other.
So from the beginning, the Habsburgs were never associated with one nation, but with always relations between different countries, languages, cultures, legal systems. And one of the best ways to ensure peace between neighbors is marriage between you and their children. It’s very easy. The Habsburgs did it even before they became emperor or king. And of course, in our today’s understanding of marriage and love, this is not ideal for the people who are being used as pawns in marriage politics, but this is what the Habsburgs did from the beginning.
So they were Catholic, therefore, they had lots of children, and the Habsburgs always had lots of children. You can go through the centuries. It gets a bit less in the 19th century, but before that, lots of children and lots of marriages everywhere. That’s why I say that the Habsburg family can look back to a rich treasure of experiences about family life, about marriage, about getting engaged. Now, you will say, “You cannot honestly say that the fate of a Habsburg princess that was married off in the 16th century to another court and a marriage today are the same thing.” No, of course they’re not the same thing.
But the basic premise is, the basic principles, and what makes a marriage tick and work is exactly the same. We have forgotten about that. I mean, since the ’60s, we believe that man has been transformed into something totally different. Therefore, nothing that was valuable before applies anymore. And we’ve been told that we can be something different every week, and should be something different every week, if we’re really happy human beings. But I believe that all the truths that were human truths for the last 2000 years, and I would say for the last 10,000 years before that, still apply because man hasn’t changed.
The fact that I can read Homer that wrote 2,600 years ago and understand every line of what he’s writing and it speaks to my soul shows you that man hasn’t changed. We haven’t changed. Therefore, I believe I can bring a bit to the table. And if I look around and I see a dysfunctional broken world with marriages going apart, with people not marrying, with people not knowing who they are, not knowing where to begin, not even knowing how to find a good spouse, not being able to jump and get engaged, I see chaos around me. I see a battlefield of brokenness, and I want to bring a little starter kit for people who want to get into this game and have a good start.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah, and I want to get into some of those details here in a minute. I want to ask though about, sticking with the Habsburg legacy here. Now in America, our views of monarchy and monarchs is, let’s just say, not very high. And we typically think of monarchs like a king who has like 13 mistresses. And basically, he just has a wife in order to have an heir and that’s really the only purpose of it.
But the Habsburgs I know, they’re obviously not all saints, but it’s a different history. What are some examples? Other than Blessed Karl and Servant of God Zita, who of course had a wonderful marriage. But are there other examples in the Habsburg past of marriages that were just solid marriages that we can say, “Yeah, this is a marriage that we can look up to and emulate.”?
Eduard Habsburg:
I give a few examples in the book. I give a few very nice examples. There’s a surprising number of very happy, very long, and very faithful marriages. Of course, there were a few Habsburgs that probably had mistresses by the side, but it was seen as a sin, because Habsburgs were Catholic. They went to the sacraments. They went to confession, so they knew what a sin was. And I think the Habsburgs who did that were the great exception. Most Habsburgs had very, very faithful and good marriages and very happy marriages.
One example that I would like to point out is Ferdinand I. Ferdinand I was a brother of Charles V, famous Charles V, one of the most famous Habsburgs ever. And his brother became emperor after him. His brother led a famously chaste life before his marriage. He never had mistresses. He never did it. He was devout. He got married and his marriage to his equally chaste wife was known to be one of the most happy and longest and happiest marriages of their time.
And if we think about the fact that at the same time, Henry VIII, who was contemporary of Ferdinand I, through his absolute lack of chastity, and his lack of being able to control himself, and to lead a normal Christian life, destroyed the Catholic Church in England and began a terrible, terrible, terrible path in England. And Ferdinand I was shocked about the behavior of the king in England. So what I’m trying to say here is simply that is one of the many examples. Charles, Archduke Charles, times of Napoleon. He was the first man to beat Napoleon in a land battle. He was a hero. Everybody knew about him.
There were monuments built to him. He led a chaste life as an archduke. He got married late. And if you read the letters he wrote to his wife, through all their marriage, you’ll get teary-eyed. That was such a tender love that they had and was a wonderful marriage. And I have so many examples, so they can… And why is this in the Habsburg family? Well, because I believe that the main ingredient and ingredient number one in my bucket list to find a good spouse is the Habsburgs didn’t marry you off to someone of another faith. If you were married off as a princess, you married a Catholic.
If that wasn’t the case, then that person became Catholic, but you weren’t married off to something. And the parents usually tried to find someone who, more or less, had a good moral life too. But most of all, you married Catholics. And my theory in my book is the first checkpoint that you have to check if you’re in love with this beautiful girl, I’m not talking as a man, and you think she could be someone to marry. The first point that you would have to check off is, do you share the faith? Is she Catholic? If she isn’t, she should become Catholic. If you aren’t, you should become Catholic.
Why do I believe this? I believe this because I think that the Catholic Church, first of all, has the truth. I believe that as a Catholic. Sorry to the other brethren in the other churches. But I also believe that the Catholic Church has the unique mixture of a moral system of guidelines and practical tools to help you keep a happy marriage that I wouldn’t know how I would live my marriage without my faith. And I love my wife very much, but life throws so much at you. If you have faith in common, then I would say that’s 50% of the path is really the faith.
Now, people nowadays wouldn’t think like that. They would think most important is that she’s hot, and that I’m in love with her, and that we click well, and that we have a nice, good, long, intimate relationship before we realize whether we might get married. That’s all having things backwards. I’m changing. Take a step back, and think really hard before you even step up closer to that other person. That’s the theory in my book.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah. One of the things I really liked about the book is, really it’s a practical guide. In fact, I realized after reading it, I’m going to give it to my son who’s engaged. So he’s already gotten to that point, but he’s got a lot of points in the future, as you know. But even in the back, there’s a checklist of just all the things that you went over. And I was like, when I got to that, I was like, “Well, this is great. It’s like a Habsburg guide to happiness.” And it’s just like bullet points to just say, “Do these things and things are going to be better for you.”
So I just want to kind of go through some of these. What’s some of the practical advice you give, for example, to a young person who is single, looking for somebody that he or she hopes it will eventually become their spouse? They’re in the dating scene. I just want to say, you and I are about the same age, and I very much am glad I don’t have to go through the modern dating scene. I have a lot of sympathy is what I’m saying for young people and trying to find a good spouse. So what are some of the practical tips you give to help young people to find a good spouse?
Eduard Habsburg:
One of the main reasons why I wrote this book is because after one talk, two young girls came up to me and said, “Where do I find a spouse as good as Blessed Karl?” And is that even possible in this broken world we live in? And that’s why I also called it in a broken world, because we live in a broken world. The probability that your future spouse and the person you are going to lead a happy, fulfilled, long marriage, blessed marriage, that this person will be living around the corner from you is small. We live in a time where it’s impossible. You have to look for people who really share a deep faith. You have to look for people who live a chaste life. It has become next to impossible because you’re bombarded with so much pornography, and images, and films. There is so many women and men who just throw themselves at you, and try to drag you into a relationship of that kind.
It’s become very, very difficult to find someone. But what you want is someone that you can really build a life and marriage upon. So you might have to throw your nets a bit further. I say in my book somewhere that, “If you want to hunt buffalo, you go to the watering hole. And if you want to find a Catholic spouse, you have to go to places where you meet Catholic people.” That may be parishes, that may be retreats, that may be pilgrimages, that may be youth meetings, that may be all those sort of people. You need to connect with people who share your faith, who share your principles, who share your ideas of family, and that can be very easy. For instance, in Dallas, we made a conference on Blessed Karl. And the day after, a couple in their house hosted a meeting for all young people who wanted to think about dating and meeting other young people.
And we had like 25 young men and 23 young women. More young men than young women, interestingly enough. We always think it’s just the girls who desperately want to get married. But the number of young men who want to get married in a Catholic way is skyrocketing. I blame this on the traditional Latin mass and the whole culture around that is that more and more young men find it attractive to be knights here, and to behave, and to have a life that is good. And so, what I’m saying is don’t despair if you don’t find someone immediately. Take your time. Play the long game. Be chaste. And don’t, for despair, hook up with somebody and go into a relationship in the hope that you can hold them long enough to get married. Doesn’t work like that, doesn’t work at all. And look for people who really check your boxes.
And as I said, the first box is faith. The second box is family. Now, imagine you found somebody, and that girl… I always speak of girl, of course it goes both ways. That girl is really, you think she’s beautiful, and you think she’s attractive, and you love her, and all of that, and have long conversations about family. It’s not a natural topic. You would rather talk about movies, and going out, and having fun, and holding hands. But figure out what the other person’s idea of family is. Is this someone who is ready for a big family? Because in my humble opinion, and it’s a central topic of my book, a family is a big family. A big family definition is different in Europe. In Europe, two children are a big family. In the States, sometimes it’s 9, 10, or 11. But is the other person ready? Is the other potential spouse ready to have a big family?
Because having a big family, I don’t have to tell you, Eric, having a big family comes with sacrifice. Having a big family comes with life decisions, comes with the question is, “Where are we going to live? Can I live Downtown New York in a swank apartment with seven children?” Probably not. If I’m in a very small slice of society, I might be able. But most people will have to choose to move somewhere where they can afford to stay with a big family. You will have to find a job that you can do from there. All these sort of things. Are we ready to have a beat down old van to move around with the family? Are we ready to not being able to afford everything? All of that are questions that you have to figure out beforehand. And if the other person is on that line with you, then you already have two of my five check marks.
Eric Sammons:
Very good. I want to bring up an issue that I think it might be a little bit controversial because it’s very much against the way of today. One of the things I like about your book is you kind of like, “Well, the way of today is not very good, so let’s do a different way.” But it ties into what you were saying before about how in the Habsburg history, you had a lot of arranged marriages. I mean, the whole point was you have this princess who’s married off to this prince in order to establish this connection. So there was little to no romantic attraction between the two before they were engaged often. But in many cases, because they were compatible in so many ways, because the marriage was set up in a compatible way, the love did grow and they did become romantically in love.
What I’ve found in some cases in today’s environment of, because of the way our world says, it even affects Catholics, that they might check off the boxes, but they’re like, they’re not romantically attracted necessarily. And I kind of feel like I’m getting to the point where I’m kind of like, “You need to realize that the checking the boxes is far more important than necessarily some of your emotional romantic feelings.” Obviously, if you’re just not attracted at all to the person, that’s one thing. But I’m talking about where, yeah, they have some attraction, but they don’t get the feeling in their stomach or whatever the case may be.
Eduard Habsburg:
Butterflies.
Eric Sammons:
What do you think about-
Eduard Habsburg:
Old butterflies.
Eric Sammons:
Right. The butterflies. Exactly. But I’m kind of like at the point where it’s like, in today’s world, if you’re checking off those boxes of family, faith, things like that, like what you’re talking about, you really should consider that this is a potential for a marriage-
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
… even if you don’t have all the butterflies. What do you think about that?
Eduard Habsburg:
What I would say to this, I have to be very careful because people think that I’m going for the…you know? How you call that? The kind of rational marriage. There’s an expression for that, you know?
Eric Sammons:
Right.
Eduard Habsburg:
Marriage of convenience or something like that.
Eric Sammons:
Right. Yeah.
Eduard Habsburg:
Absolutely wrong, of course. But you are right, Eric, that your love, your attraction to the other one definitely grows with the years of being married. I would say that I love my wife and in love with my wife far more than I was when I got married to her. This sounds very controversial. It’s like, “Weren’t you at all?” But the problem is, that love comes from knowledge. And if you spend those many years together, if you know each other so well, and you love each other more with passing time. I don’t want to encourage anybody to marry somebody whom they don’t feel any kind of feelings for, and just we have to sit down, we make a checklist, and then we get married.
Eric Sammons:
Right.
Eduard Habsburg:
Because Ambassador Habsburg said that if the checklist fits. No, no, no. Of course, there is an element of we like each other. But it doesn’t have to be the mind-blowing, emotional experience because you can count on it. If you pray together, if you live together, if you have children together, and if you like each other, and if your characterwise more or less compatible, this will grow. You have no clue who the other person is. Even after months, you have no clue.
Eric Sammons:
That’s right.
Eduard Habsburg:
You will know this in 10 years’ time, in 20 years’ time. And that’s why, while I’m not calling you to marry by checklist, I very much encourage you not to worry too much about, is this the absolute number one and right one? If everything checks, and there is sympathy, and both sides want, this is a very, very good chance for lifelong happiness. It sounds very unromantic. It sounds very boring, but I think it’s quite a good thing.
And people nowadays do it the other way around. They form an attachment, then they go into an intimate relationship. Then, they convince themselves for a while, because what I call is the poor sentimental source over their relationship, that they believe that they fit together because, of course, your body and your chemicals tell you you fit together, if you have an intimate relationship.
And you can build bridges over all the differences that you have by that for a time, for a while. That, of course, burns out after a while because you cannot build a relationship immediately and only on that, so people have it backwards. All of that comes later. That’s why my third point is so very important. So it’s faith, it’s family, your ideas of family. The third one is chastity.
Eric Sammons:
Yes.
Eduard Habsburg:
It’s a very much unloved expression. But you are looking for someone who is trying to live in a chaste way, as much as with all our sinfulness, it’s possible. This is a high priority. There is this joke. Two friends meet after a while, and one of them tells the other one, “I have a surprise for you. I made a vow of chastity, poverty, and obedience.” And the other friend says, “Oh, you’re getting married.”
Eric Sammons:
Oh, very good.
Eduard Habsburg:
What I’m saying is, marrying someone who is in his or her approach chaste will guarantee a respectful relationship. Also, in the intimate way, will guarantee that the other person will not be looking to the left and the right all the time. My family, we have a saying which is, “If you’re not faithful to your wife before you get married to her, you won’t be faithful to your wife in your marriage.”
Eric Sammons:
Right.
Eduard Habsburg:
And I believe that chastity is important. Now, people believe that it’s impossible. First of all, it’s impossible because you can’t live chastely. Today, mostly boys, impossible. Also, it’s not healthy. They should have fun. They should enjoy their lives. They’re young only ones. Life is boring later. I don’t want to say the word. Bulls.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah.
Eduard Habsburg:
This is totally wrong. And you set your children on a path that is incredibly destructive and terrible. Because with each relationship that you begin and break off again, your chance of a lifelong happy marriage diminishes every time a bit. Ask yourself, “Is it really worthwhile? Or do I want 30, 40, 50 years of happy marriage?” I think that’s worthwhile to achieve.
Eric Sammons:
And I think speaking of chastity, I know you recognize and I recognize that in today’s world, which is awash in pornography, awash in just immorality when it comes to sexuality all around us, that the fact is, there are going to be particularly young men who have fallen on this aspect.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
And I think that young women should recognize that what you’re looking for is somebody who’s fighting for chastity.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
Not necessarily that they’ve always been perfect at it in the past.
Eduard Habsburg:
No.
Eric Sammons:
But that they’re fighting, and they want to be chaste, and they’re going to confession, for example.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
They acknowledge it. Obviously, you want to be the person to be completely chaste. But I think in today’s world, we also recognize that if the person’s really fighting for it, and they’re getting the graces from the sacraments to fight it, that’s key in the battle really.
Eduard Habsburg:
Absolutely. That’s why my first point is faith. I don’t even see how you could survive living in today’s world, especially as a man without grace, the sacraments, and confession. And I totally agree with you. Don’t want to give the wrong impression that you have to marry the one virgin that still remains on the world or something like that. No. This is about an attitude that you’re looking for in the other person. The attitude is, with the grace of God, I want to give my everything that I can to live a chaste life.
As I like to say in interviews, chastity does not mean no sex. Chastity means sex where it belongs. And God has settled these things, in a way, to make us happy on a long-term and participate in his plan for the world. And it’s not easy. It’s not easy today. It’s more difficult than ever, but it’s possible. And imagine the greatness of the gift you make your spouse by telling her, “I’m trying to be chaste for you.” And it’s possible.
Eric Sammons:
Yes.
Eduard Habsburg:
I have so many friends who do this. And in the generation of my children, they try to live it that way, and their friends try to live it that way. It’s worthwhile. It’s worthwhile. And don’t listen to people who say, “Impossible. Out of this world. Sick or whatever.” It’s not true.
Eric Sammons:
Yes. Yes, there are virgins getting married to each other, in this day and age. It still exists, you know?
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
You’ll never see it on television. You’ll never hear it talked about, but it does exist. But I think, again, the key is that both parties are really fighting for chastity and have been fighting for it for quite some time before getting married.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
I think one of the things I like about the book is also, you’re basically… It’s kind of funny because in some ways, what you’re saying is simply what the Church has always said for 2000 years. And you’re just simply saying, “Everything that we’re being told today is a lie. And we know it’s a lie because look at all the broken marriages, look at all the divorce, all the adultery, all these things that are happening.”
So in a lot of ways, I think you know this, you’re not saying anything new, but I do think you’re making some specific examples. I don’t know why this one kind of stuck in my head. But when you said, “Engagement shouldn’t be a…” How’d you put it? Like a social media moment. I mean, that’s what everybody does now. So why did you say that?
Eduard Habsburg:
First of all, what you said about me just stating what the Church and human wisdom has always said. There is a scene in one of the Star Wars sequels where Harrison Ford says, “It’s true, all of it.” You know, I figured out that what the Church tells us is true. Unfortunately, it’s true. Yeah, but to get to why. I mean, I think most people live two parallel lives, a very unexciting real life and a very exciting digital life. I remember when my parents made a trip to the States with us when we were teenagers, and we went to the Grand Canyon for the first time. It was in the evening. And my mother told us, and we didn’t even have phones then, “Don’t take pictures. Take a picture with your inner camera. Remember this moment.” I remember the moment because I didn’t take a picture.
The same goes for your engagement. Your engagement is the biggest step. It is huge. The marriage is just a consequence of that. You know, getting married in front of a priest is the consequence of this gigantic… It’s one of the most intimate and one of the most vulnerable moments in a relationship. Of course, not if you already live together since years and just have to figure out that you want to have a nice picture of someone falling on a knee in front of you. And then, afterwards you holding a ring into the camera as with most people. But for two people who don’t live together, who don’t have a relationship, where one of them says, “I want to throw my entire life together with yours forever. This is the moment.” This should be a fiercely private moment. This should not be not an Instagram moment.
But my children, after I read them the chapter from my book, they went online and they found, can’t imagine, they found homepages of photographers that explain to other photographers how you prepare that special moment, how you take contact with this future spouse, and where you place yourself. Find a good hiding spot behind the bush, and then have a point on the floor where he knows to kneel down. All of this horrible, horrible stuff. It’s also fake. And the woman has to pretend she doesn’t know, and it’s terrible. Now, I don’t want to criticize anyone who does that. There are many women who love the idea that they sit in a stadium with a hot dog, and the hubby beside. And suddenly on the big screen it says, “Marry me.” And everybody claps. I think this is the worst case of bullying because you can’t even say no.
Eric Sammons:
That’s right. That’s right.
Eduard Habsburg:
And everyone’s watching. So I believe, in my case, it was a spontaneous decision. I was thinking about, at some point, getting married with my then, yeah, love interest. But we were praying for a good discernment, and we prayed a novena, and it was a novena to the Holy Spirit. And it contained the line, “From resistance against the known truth, deliver us, oh Lord.” So we prayed that every day and we went on a pilgrimage together. And then, we sat after morning mass under a crucifix, and we talked, and we talked about family and the future.
I remember we began talking about how one would do a wedding mass. And at that moment, that line, “From resistance against the known truth, deliver us, oh Lord,” came into my head and I said, “It can’t be clearer.” And I asked her without preparation, with no ring, I just asked her, and she said yes. That’s how it’s supposed to be. And I assure you, your future wife will be very happy if she can choose the ring afterwards together with you and have a say. It’s much better than if you surprise her with it. So it’s just a detail, but it’s a sign of how much derailed our realities are.
Eric Sammons:
What you’re saying is, it should be a natural process, not a invented one, like a choreographed one, and all that.
Eduard Habsburg:
No.
Eric Sammons:
Because the problem is then it becomes… The more natural it is, the better. I mean, like you were saying about the pictures. Of course, there was no social media back when I got engaged over 30 years ago. But I remember very clearly in my brain, in my inner camera, I remember asking my now wife. I like the word you said, vulnerable, because the woman should have every ability to say no.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
That’s part of the joy when she says yes. If it’s like this forced thing where everybody’s like it’s all choreographed. Well, I mean, it’s like you know she’s going to say, at least feel like she has to say yes. But when it’s just this very natural, like when you ask your now wife, I’m sure you felt confident there’s a decent chance she could say yes, but there’s always a chance she could’ve just said, “No, I don’t think so. I’m not ready for that.” Yeah.
Eduard Habsburg:
I didn’t plan it. I didn’t know. I gathered she would, but that’s the whole point. It’s a free coming together of two free people, who are ready to throw their lives together, and embark on the greatest adventure in the world, and that should be fiercely private. But again, to all the people watching, to also all my Twitter fans who know that I sometimes make tiny snipe remarks when people… I don’t want to condemn anybody who loves it. There are many people who love this. There are women who want that, who find it’s very romantic. I’m just saying, it goes against my sensibility. Perhaps I’m too old. Perhaps I’m too old.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah. I mean, we might just be old men on the porch complaining about kids today. That’s okay too.
Eduard Habsburg:
Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Eric Sammons:
I want to kind of skip ahead in the process of talk about the wedding and stuff, but people can read the book and stuff. You have such a focus on children in this though, and having lots of kids. And of course, you do address the issue of people who just, for whatever reason, are not able to have kids.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
You explicitly say, “No contraception and having lots of kids.” But why is it that having children is so core to what you say is making up a wholesome marriage?
Eduard Habsburg:
Well, be fruitful and multiply. If you decide that God is at the center of your relationship, then you should follow his ideas for marriage. And Jesus says this, “Leaving father and mother, becoming one flesh, founding a family, be fruitful and multiply. Let the children come to me.” All of this is, I want to submit myself to God’s plan for marriage. And many people nowadays say, “This is unreasonable. We can’t afford this. On the other hand, why don’t we first earn lots of money, have real success. And then when we’re rich enough, we can have a few children. They get better formation if we have more money. If we have less siblings, then more can afford a good school.” You know?
It all seems to make sense. But we live in the most wealthy and secure time ever in Western society, and we can’t afford children. It’s incredible. And in the 19th century, people could afford 14 children, and did survive. Well, not all was, of course, always wonderful. But a plan for God is a big family. Also, because if God says yes to your marriage, then this marriage was his plan, then you will become what you are through this marriage and the children. You are only part of what you will be without that. So saying yes to many children is a path to becoming a happy, rounded, and fulfilled plan of God.
And I truly believe that this calling is, of course, except for the cases where people can’t have children. It’s a mystery. It’s a mystery and a painful mystery. I know many cases where it just doesn’t go ahead. It doesn’t work. But if you can have children, the moment you get married, begin having children. Don’t wait. Don’t listen even to confessors who tell you, “Oh, take your time. Enjoy each other. Have a nice time together. And later…” It’s wrong. Marriage should be open for life, and life will make you happy. It’s like that.
Eric Sammons:
And really, I was thinking about something Blessed Karl said the night before he was married, he said, “Let’s help each other get to heaven.” He said to Zita. And I feel like children are one of the primary means in which in our state of life it helps us get to heaven because it’s such a death to self, you can’t help it. You don’t realize how selfish you are until all of a sudden this human being has all these demands in your time. And you had been living before this, you just do whatever you want, whenever you want.
And all of a sudden now, you just can’t do that. And the more children you have, the more you have to die to self. And I just feel like it’s a school of sanctity and it’s the way God set things up. My daughter just had her first child, which is my first grandchild, just this month. And of course, she’s not sleeping any. You know all the struggles, particularly when the baby’s firstborn. It’s so beautiful, but yet it’s also, it just upends your entire world
Eduard Habsburg:
Totally.
Eric Sammons:
But yet, this is exactly the way it’s supposed to be. My daughter and my son-in-law, they’re supposed to be tired all the time. And having to put this little dependent baby completely above all their own interests, and I think it’s going to help them get to heaven. And so this is the way, so to speak, to quote Boba Fett or whoever it was.
Eduard Habsburg:
The Mandalorian.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah, The Mandalorian. That’s right. That’s right. I knew you would know. I knew you would know. You’re the pop culture expert here. But yeah, so I think it makes a very important point you make about having lots of children. But I want to speak, because you’re a father, I’m a father. What is the unique role of fathers? Mothers and fathers are not interchangeable. What is the unique role of father in raising children, particularly in their faith life?
Eduard Habsburg:
Oh, wow. First of all, I believe that the great crisis of our world is that we have a fatherless society. Pupils in school only meet female educators all the time. So many people are raised by single mothers. Many children grow up without having a father or having an absent father, that too. And I believe indeed, as you said, that the core role of the father is living faith, so that his children see that he lives faith. Now, people traditionally believe that a father is sort of doing the work, and all the practical stuff, and the severe education. The mother is for the faith things.
But I think it’s wrong. I believe that, especially with daughters. I have five daughters and one son. We are being told that the father decides upon whether you will have a good relationship with God, with your body, with yourself, with other men as a woman, depending on the father. But mostly my book, I speak about the father as example for his children in faith matters. And the example that I use in almost every interview about this book is you don’t have to be a super saint. You don’t have to be Blessed Karl to be an example to your children.
And the example I take is Francis of Lorraine, the husband of Empress Maria Theresa, where in 1740 more or less, they have 16 children. She’s the power player, the empress, everything. He’s the husband and he’s a Freemason. He’s the only Freemason we had in the family. And he’s not a very devout man. On the surface, he rarely speaks about church, faith, religion, priests. Rarely, rarely in his letters. But there is one point where he absolutely and stubbornly, stubbornly clings to, and that’s confession. And I have to say that his children knew that he went to confession once a week.
It may have been from a feeling of being a sinner. I don’t know too much about his private life apart from Maria Theresa. I believe he was a good husband. There were rumors that he was having affairs or something. In any case, he adamantly went to confession regularly. He said, “Go to communion often, but only go when you’ve gone to confession.” And he did that. He kept that date all his life, although he wasn’t like what you call a great church light in the other things. But that one was an appointment he never missed, and his children knew it.
And years after his death, Maria Theresa writes to one of her children and says, “Do you remember how your father always said, ‘Go to confession regularly. Don’t go to communion without having been to confession.’?” And God gave him the ultimate reward for this example that he gave to you because he died without being able to receive extreme action. He died without being able to prepare himself. After visiting the theater, he felt unwell. He went home and he died. So this, of course, is the worst thing that can happen to a good Catholic.
Eric Sammons:
Right.
Eduard Habsburg:
But God gave him the grace to die on a Sunday. And he had gone to confession and to communion that morning because he stubbornly went to confession. And all of his children knew about confession. And even Joseph II, their eldest son, emperor, and not exactly a very devout-seeming man who did a lot of damage to the church, if you read my first book. He saw that his confessor was never far away from him when he was in his final illness. And he saw that his mother could go to confession before she died. So you see, you can be a good example for your children even if you’re not the super saint in everything.
Eric Sammons:
Right. And I do think that they’ve done studies that show that the father has the biggest influence on the religious beliefs of their children.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
It kind of goes back to what we were saying before about like, if you’re fighting for chastity, that’s what matters. And if you’re fighting to live a holy life, I know you know this, as fathers, we hate it when we fail because we know the example, it’s bad for our children. But if at least they see you getting back up. The fact that you get back up, you go to confession, and you’re regularly going to confession, you regularly make sure your kids go to confession. I love that story though about him dying because the fact that he had just gone to confession and communion.
You know, we pray in the Hail Mary, “Pray for us, now and at the hour of our death.” It’s not like a magical incantation. We’re supposed to do something as well. If we’re rarely going to confession, receiving the sacraments, then what’s going to happen is we’re going to die in the state of grace. It’s not a magical thing where all of a sudden we just live however we want, and then we’ll magically be saved at the end. No. If we just live in that state of grace all the time, then it doesn’t matter when we die because we’ll be prepared for it.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes. Yes.
Eric Sammons:
And so, I think that’s very important. I think we’re going to wrap it up here. But I just want to personally, I think, after reading the book, Building a Wholesome Family in a Broken World, Habsburg Lessons from the Centuries, Sophia Institute Press. I’ll make sure I put a link to it, so you can buy it. And maybe one day, you’ll get a copy of it as well.
A lot of people can get a lot of help out of this. But I think it’s a great gift from parents to their young adult children, maybe when they graduate from high school, from college, when they’re entering the dating scene, wherever the case may be, because I think it gives them a leg up that they can really have the practical advice and kind of see what direction they’re going, what direction they should be going.
Obviously, somebody who’s been married for years can get… I found things in there like, “Yeah, this helps me.” And I’ve been married for almost 30 years. But I really feel like one of the main beneficiaries, I think, would be young people. What was your audience when you wrote it?
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes. I think young people on the threshold, ideally parents to pass some of these ideas onto their children before they even get into the dating game. But what you said before about, you know? Just this weekend, this coming weekend, I will celebrate 30 years of engagement with my wife. And next year, I will celebrate 30 years of marriage. And as I said, you’re never so old that you can’t continue working on your relationship.
Eric Sammons:
Right.
Eduard Habsburg:
In my book, I give the example of Franz Ferdinand who was killed in Sarajevo. Of course, we could speak about him dying on the fourth of his Sacred Heart devotion Fridays. He was doing the devotions to the Sacred Heart. And his wife and he both carried medals of the Sacred Heart when they were shot. So I’m just saying he was a very devout man, but he was a man with an explosive temper.
He also was a very, very voracious hunter and shooter. But he had an atrocious temper and he had the tendency to get angry and to explode. He knew that. And he loved his wife dearly, so he gave her, as a present, a little broach of a lamb. And he told her, “Put this on whenever we’re together. And if you see the signs that I begin to get angry, just discreetly tap the lamb.”
He was aware of his weaknesses. He was aware of his mistakes. He humbly asked his wife for help. And I know this story, not because of a history book, because one of my cousins got this from her grandmother who was a descendant of Franz Ferdinand. So this is for you and me. We can never stop learning to love and to make gestures towards our spouse to improve our relationship.
Eric Sammons:
I absolutely love that story. I mean, it shows his humility, and also shows that he was not a perfect man, and none of us are. I mean, it’s interesting because the title of the book is Building a Wholesome Family in a Broken World. Well, the reality is that we’re broken ourselves. It’s not just the world. It’s you and I, we’re broken.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
Yet, we can have a wholesome family.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
That’s the good news. It is possible, even for people like us who might have bad tempers, might be impatient, might have struggles with this or that, it’s still possible to particularly just follow this guidance that the Church has given us. And you very nicely gave us, repeated in this book, I think it is something that we can have a wholesome family, even though we are broken people.
Eduard Habsburg:
Thank you. I totally agree, Eric. I couldn’t have put it better.
Eric Sammons:
Very good. Well, thank you again for coming on. Again, I’ll put a link into the book. I’ll also put a link into your X account, so people can follow you there. I always like it when you respond to people who might make a Habsburg joke or something like that. I can see why you’re a diplomat because you have a very good way of kind of tweaking them without trying to cause offense or anything like that.
Eduard Habsburg:
Yes.
Eric Sammons:
It always makes me chuckle.
Eduard Habsburg:
And I’m immensely jealous that you already have a copy of the book.
Eric Sammons:
Yes. Yes, I savor it. Yes, I can.
Eduard Habsburg:
Don’t wave it around.
Eric Sammons:
You’ll get one eventually over there in Rome, so.
Eduard Habsburg:
I think I will. I think I will.
Eric Sammons:
Very good. Well, God bless you. Thank you again for coming on.
Eduard Habsburg:
See you soon again. Bye-Bye.
Eric Sammons:
Okay. Until next time everybody. God love you.